Violin Forum/Message Board

[Dave Chandler]

I wanted to share a revelation with some of the other novices. I'm in the mode now of not trusting measurements until I've checked and double checked.

I don't have access to any decent instruments from which to make a pattern, so some time back I purchased a Guarnari pattern, not sure if I got it from ILS or Metropolitan, in any case I've used it twice before, never could figure why my finished instruments tended to be a bit broad.

Last night I had just attached mid-ribs to the blocks on the guarnari mold I've been using, and I got to checking the pattern against Guarnari instrument sizes in Luthierlibrary.com and came to the realization that the pattern was about 5mm wide at the button, and about 2mm too wide at the bottom, and length about 1mm long. This is a half-pattern, so the entire instrument would have been 10mm too wide. SPent the entire evening reworking my mold.
_________________
Dave in the Blue Ridge
Southern Violin Association

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next with no loss of enthusiasm" Winston Churchill

"I took the road less travelled, and now I don't know where I am." Marco Polo

[kel]

paid for a pattern and it turns out to be inaccurate !
that wasted u lot of time and effort

at least after your careful measurement repeatedly, found what and where went wrong

cheer up, satisfaction is waiting for you
_________________
Newbie Maker Kelvin

[MANFIO]

Get some Strad Posters and make your own patterns and forms, that's the way.
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

[kubasa]

You've probably seen this but I found this article very interesting.

http://www.thestrad.com/downloads/Stradposter.pdf

[actonern]

Dave:

If you're talking about that clear acetate 1/2 pattern of a "guarneri" outline that's commonly available I know exactly what you mean.

Interestingly, if you sliced off about 2.5 mm. off the entire "centerline" of that pattern you'd end up with what is pretty close to some sort of generic del gesu outline.

As Manifio recommends, the posters are good, but not without errors either... I think that acetate just left way too much material down the centerline.

[ghammond]

Hi All,

Does anyone have a recommendation for a pattern for a beginner? I have the Henry Wake pattern, and, although I have re-examined the mold layout and it does look accurate, the top and bottom plate layouts are not accurate. (I think he may have roughly drawn them to give you an "idea" of what to do, but it still makes me a little hesitant to use them.)

Is there a design somewhere that would be good for me to start out with? Maybe I should pay for the luthier library membership and use a pattern from there?

Also, I have a very novice question. On page 70-71 of The Art of Violin Making they display the "half pattern" design". I have never understood the purpose of the two triangle notches at the top and bottom of the half pattern. Also, I do not understand why there is the 10mm hangover from the center line. Why not just have a pattern that is half of a violin mold and leave it at that?

Thanks,
-G

[cmkaco]

G,
I am in the same boat as you. Totally confused about what to start with. I am looking for a good pattern, with good plans, and hopefully, a Strad poster that I can combine as reference points for my first build. I asked in several forums and really didn't get a great answer, just that this or that book has plans in it, or so and so sells plans. However, those seem to be to some generic Stradivari or del Gesu pattern.

I asked a maker and he suggested the Messiah or the Kreisler del Gesu. I was initially excited, because the Strad has the Messiah poster in it for March 2011, and somebody above mentioned having Messiah plans (thanks!!). However, then I read that the plans might not be that accurate, and upon further research, I found that the Messiah itself has never been modified, as have most violins, to have what we now consider an appropriate neck set, and string length (but then again, it is the most pristine, so that is its value).

So, now I am hesitant to try the Messiah, and may just revert to some of those generic Strad plans, that everybody seems to have. However, I would really like to be able to finda good set of instrument specific plans, and a matching Strad poster.

[L P Reedy]

ghammond,
Not sure what you mean. I used the (Harry) Wake pattern when I started but always (as I still do) traced belly and back from the ribs on the mold. My latest designs are my own and are hybrids of a sort. I wouldn't spend too much time trying to find the perfect design to start on. Just get to building.

I don't have Art of Violin Making but it sounds like the notches are centerline marks. Maybe a little easier than accurately cutting to the line. Still just a matter of preference.

Lyle

[ghammond]

Thanks Lyle and Cmkaco!

Yes, concerning the Wake pattern, I may not have been clear about what I meant about the inconsistencies on these patterns. So when I said that the patterns of the molds (sheet 1 and 2) are accurate, I meant, if you hold the pattern of sheet 1 and sheet 2 (sheets being back-to-back) up to the light, the patterns will match accurately. Meaning, that the outlines of the violin match exactly from sheet 1 to sheet 2.

However, if you try holding the patterns of the front and back plates (sheets 3, 4, and 5) up to the light (sheets being back-to-back) you'll notice that the outlines of the violins are not consistent. Some have different curves, some have different angles, some have different C bouts, ect. They do not match up exactly. I think Mr. Wake may have intended these patterns for the top and back to give you a "rough" idea of what you'll need to do. Maybe he didn't intend for these to be the exact outlines of the front and back plates. If so, it seems like you would have an inconsistent product. Of course, there is always the possibility that I am not reading them correctly.... "user error".

cmkaco, if people seem to agree that the Wake pattern is a good one (which I am not sure that it is, or is not, at this point), then I can send you a copy of the pattern. Or, if you are interested in some really good DVDs about how to make a violin, I would suggest you purchase the Wake DVDs on how to make a violin (http://www.violinmaking.com/). The DVDs are accompanied with the full-scale patterns that I am using. The DVDs themselves are very informative... and at this point, I do not see how you could build a violin with just The Art of Violin Making book alone. Although The Art of Violin Making is a very good book, I do not think I could figure out the steps without seeing someone do them in front of me. A DVD is worth a thousand words.

BTW - The Wake DVDs are very antiquated (ie-VHS recordings from 1970s converted to DVDs). This may bother some people, but once you get past the 70's style (which I personally happen to mind, being a child of the early 80's) then you have the opportunity to gain some real-world knowledge about the process of violin making.

-G

[ghammond]

Also, (sorry, don't mean to be a forum hog!) I had emailed the Ashmolean asking if the patterns for the Messiah contained enough detail to construct a violin and I received the following (indefinite) answer, (if this helps, which it probably does not):

..................................

I'm not sure which poster you are referring to, but this is where you can purchase working drawings:

http://www.ashmolean.org/shop/?cat=-1&id=18

I believe this is the type of plan you need to make a copy.

..................................

[cmkaco]

I tend to be the kind of person who puts in a lot of research before I jump into a project, so I have purchased (just today) the Wake books and the DVD. I also have all the Strobel books and the Art of Making a Violin book, and about half the Peter Paul Prier When Trees String videos.

You are right, it is hard to do from just a book. I found that out with the Benedetto archtop guitar book. I read it once, and a lot of things were unclear. So, then I bought the plans and the DVDs, and suddenly it all made sense. It is hard when somebody writes in a book that you do x, y and z for this process. However, when you see it, and how they hold the tool and move their hands and body, then you say, ah, now I understand, and you go do it.

[DonLeister]

Yes that's the drawing that I got.

I don't have the Wake book but do have the H. Strobel book which has full size plans, it is okay. It would at least help you determine block locations if you were to make a mold from a poster or the drawings.

I think without watching someone make a violin you have to do a lot of figuring things out. I think I went through at least 6 molds before I settled on a method that I like. That would be about 20 violins, I pulled my hair out a lot.
However if you can get to a Jim Brown's Workshop with Michael Darnton instructing you would make great gains.

[cmkaco]

I guess the other reason why I am looking for a specific violin plan, and not just a generic violin after the style of Strad plan, is that many people say that you have to study the masters' work, before you can develop your own design. Not being one who really wants to copy somebody else's work, I sort of disagree with this, but I don't know much about violins or violin making, so I am going with this advice. So, if you take this as true, then shouldn't you actually study that master's work, and not somebody's generic model of that master's style? This way, you see their complete and actual vision of one instrument. Then, maybe you make a few more, and maybe a few of another master. After making a number of instruments like this, then maybe you can develop your own style, after you understand what the real masters before you did, why and how they did it. That is just my thinking on the subject.

[ghammond]

Yes, that philosophy makes sense to me. In my experience, the best knowledge is the "been there, done that kind". You kinda have to go down every street and search out every nook and cranny before you can really know something. Right now, I know nothing. But that's part of the fun.

Although, I think you do need to be careful. I saw a comment on either this thread or another thread mentioning that the Messiah plan may have a smaller neck than most modern violins. I don't know exactly why they used to make violins with smaller necks back in the old days, but I have heard from a couple people that they did do this. A luthier had pointed out to me an old German violin made in 1830 that at one point had a smaller neck, but at a later point it had a longer modern neck grafted onto it (which apparently is a difficult, time consuming and tricky process).

[cmkaco]

The shorter neck/neck set difference is related to two things (as far as I can tell only from reading books on violins). One is that there was no standard concert pitch, or that it used to be lower. When the concert pitch was changed to A 440, they had to change some things. Also concert halls became bigger, and the violin became more of a solo/virtuoso instrument, and needed to stand out, i.e., be louder. So they needed more string tension. They did this by putting in more neck set/greater angle of neck to body. Previously the neck was set pretty straight, and the fingerboard was wedge shaped, which created the angle. When they changed it, they used flat fingerboards and set the neck at an angle. They also established a more standard string length, which was longer. Hopefully, somebody who actually knows will give some more information.