Violin Forum/Message Board

[spystyle]

Hello from Maine,

I've been reading about Nagyvary's theories and Antonio Stradivari's manufacturing methods. I find it especially fascinating about the pesticide and gem finish and sea water stored wood.

He also theorizes that the aged violins play so well because the years and years of sound waves have created microscopic fissures in finish.

I thought a person could possibly replicate that "years of sound waves" by firing focused sound waves into finished violin panels.

I am curious if any of you guys use the sea water, insecticides, gems and such to make your violins?

Cheers,
Craig

p.s.

Here is a great article about Nagyvary's chemical theories:
http://tinyurl.com/2ch9c7

Here is a great article about the wood Stradivari used:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-12-01-strad-theory_x.htm

Here is a video about the chemicals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pKKRNDdV7M

and Nagyvary's website:
http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/

[Jack H.]

I do not subscribe to that school with the water logged logs and all.
Strad violins sound the way they do for many reasons and one of them is that they are so old and well played and were built by a man who had a great intuitive knowledge of what would make a violin sound good.
A 300 year old violin body has withstood the test of time and the wood fibers themselves have shrunken and oxidized and undergone changes (the varnish too has had time to become what it is also.
All these things create what we have today.
I do not think it comes down to water soaked logs. Any other treatments found on the wood could have very well been put there by any restorer who happened across the fiddle in the intervening years.
I try to use Occam's razor when trying to assess things that may have or might have or even did happen in the absence of eye witness evidence.

[spystyle]

So you think the age of the wood has more to do with it than the initial saltwater treatment?

By that logic would you be inclined to source very old wood to make a violin? Maybe from antique furniture or wood structures?

What do you think about my theory of firing focused amplified sound waves into the finished violin panels, from behind, in order to replicate the effect of being played daily for 300 years?

Cheers,
Craig

[MANFIO]

Cozio di Salabue, in 1780 "circa", in his notes about musical instruments (in Italian), mentions that wood for violin should be got in Venice prior to its imersion in the sea water.
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

[actonern]

Is it possible that his stellar reptutation can be explained by statistics...

Lots of experts agree that not all of his instruments sound particularly good (even though his workmanship and varnish are uniformly of high standard).

If his shop produced 1000 instruments over the course of his lifetime, and lets say that 3 percent of this output was truly superior, that would represent 30 instruments, which may be close to the number of `superstar` concert instruments that are well known, repeatedly photographed, written about, played in concert and by famous artists.

The rosy reputuation thus established by these few instruments then casts an aura over his entire output, justifiably or not.

I`m not saying this is true, but it strikes me as plausible, considering evidence such as that provided in the Hill book on Stradivari, where they observe that his thicknesses were never graduated with particular care, and that many of his intruments have been re-graduated over the centuries...

[violinarius]

Thanks for posting.

When someone says that they haven't heard a better 'New' violin, then I see that the video is old looking, then I would have to say that perhaps modern violin making has made some advances since this video was made.

The newest theory is that the treatment of wood is some sort of chemicals. Which ones? He doesn't say.

"Our results support the idea that chemical treatments, such as oxidation and hydrolysis were used in making these violins, ...." - from link below.

http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/Nagyvary_Nature_Page.pdf

[violinarius]

[spystyle]

There are some parts of his recipe revealed here:

http://tinyurl.com/24wo6n

I e-mailed him to see if he shares he recipe or keeps it a secret. Since he manufactures "Strad clones" I am willing to bet he does not share the recipe.... We'll see if they send me a reply.

Here are the ingredients mentioned in that article:

"potassium, sodium, aluminum, copper, iron and especially calcium and magnesium"

"wood finishes frequently contained powdered glass, porcelain or amber to add stiffness to the wood and make the finish glitter like a gem, and that fruit-tree extracts were widely used in wood varnishes"

"solution of gum from the guar plant. He adds borax. x-bile as an an emulsifier. He also adds quartz, amber, gypsum, coral, zinc and powdered ruby and sapphire"

There is also another article with some ingredients:
http://tinyurl.com/3d9bl2

"The violin backs appear to have been brutally treated with salts of copper, iron and chromium as wood preservers,"

Cheers,
Craig

[spystyle]

Hey I found sound clips of a real Strad and a Nagyvary copy played for comparison:

http://www.geocities.com/ganesha_gate/strad.html

(search for the term "mp3")

Specifically, it is a violin made by luthier Guang Yue Chen in collaboration with Nagyvary.

I do not think all of his violins are made by Guang Yue Chen, I think the others are CNC copies. I think that after lots of Google searches.

Weather or not you subscribe to Nagyray's theories, you can appreciate learning the ingredients and treatments in the Strad violins. It is interesting and very different than the treatments used today. (especially crushed gems!)

But I don't think the future of violins will be changed even if Nagyvary releases his recipe, I think the future of violins is carbon fiber. We'll see

Cheers,
Craig

[spystyle]

Holy cow! I got a reply from Nagyvary himself!

Me : Do you share your recipe for a Strad clone? Or do you keep it a secret? Thank you, Craig

Him : Of course, not. I worked for it all my life. It will go with me to my grave. But we do sell violins....

nagyvary@nagyvaryviolins.com

[spystyle]

After much thought, I've decided that Nagyvary totally sux.

I mean really, to discover the exact Stradivari recipe and keep it a secret? To discover how to replicate the exact tone of a Stradivari and not publish that information? That's preposterous!

Cheers,
Craig

[Andres Sender]

Craig, you’ve come into this kind of in mid-stream, and you’re taking Dr. N at face value.

I'd recommend that you read past threads at the various forums you’ve already discovered and see what people have had to say about him and his instruments over the years.

[spystyle]

Yeah I can dig it,

I suppose it's just the sequence in which I made these discoveries. It went like this:

1. Strad used a very different varnish - interesting!

2. Some dude has discovered exactly what it is - oh good! I'd like to try that!

3. He won't tell anyone what it is and only cares about money - Oh lame!

Oh well, my VSO will not have a Stradavari varnish. Ce la vie

But really, who can respect a scientist that only cares about money?

Does Antonio Stradivari's recipe really belong solely to Nagayvary ? I don't think so, I think it is historical information. And who deserves to know history? Everyone!

I can't respect that guy

Greed is his defining characteristic.

I always thought scientists were compelled to forward the community, to contribute to the knowledge pool. Apparently I was wrong.

*sigh*

Cheers,
Craig

[spystyle]

So... moving right along.

If the "best" varnish can not be had, what is the 2nd best?

Is there a general consensus as to a varnish that helps a violin to sound better?

Thank you,
Craig

[Chet Bishop]

Nope...there isn't!

Luthiers disagree about nearly everything, and varnish is certainly no exception. I have always used oil varnishes, but the fellow I am now learning from always uses spirit varnishes...so I am about to learn something new.

There are a huge variety of possibilities, any of which may be fine, within oil/spirit varnishes, and all of which are "traditional"--just depends on "whose tradition".

If you are using a book, do whatever is in the book--if you are being guided by a teacher, do what he/she tells you. You can always learn another way later. You are not going to build a world-class instrument the first time, and the varnish won't be a show-stopper, either, more than likely. But that is how we learn, and it is nothing to feel bad about. If you build that first instrument, and varnish it, and it is playable and pretty, you have something to be proud of. (How many of your acquaintances have done as much?)

As you look at it more, and compare it to professional instruments, you will have something to be humble about, as you see how much more there is to learn. Both are healthy, and part of learning.

Chet