Violin Forum/Message Board

Amalia · Member Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 129

First, I must comment that the old "greats" didn't have access to the type of shoulder rests that we have today. Even 50 years ago, when I began playing the violin, the shoulder rests that were in use were practically painful! There are things I disagree with in regard to the Suzuki method, but I agree with holding the violin in such a way that you do not have to rely on your left hand to support it. You have far more freedom to move around the fingerboard if you do not have to support the violin continually with your left hand.

Second, regarding mislabeled, etc. violins, I own several "old Italian" violins with convincing labels, and I have received as many opinions as to who actually made them as the number of "experts" whom I have shown them to. Very sad. The oldest one actually has authentication papers from a world reknowned dealer from a generation ago stating that it is an Amati, but some of today's dealers agree and some don't. The label says it's an Amati, but who really knows? At least it sounds good.

AntonPolezhayev · Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject:

AntonPolezhayev · Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:13 am Post subject:

John Cadd · Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:23 am Post subject:

Welcome aboard the topic Techfiddle. where we gather together once more to thrash a bit of life into this dead donkey.
Not the Strad and Guarneri argument. That`s basically about money.
The shoulder rest saga has created some important Black Boxes.
We need to open all those boxes to have a closer look.
Techfiddle highlights the Suzuki method and overall I would commend the teachers for starting off so many musicians. Inside the Suzuki Black Box ------(Black Box here used as in electronics and not derogatory ) ,----inside the Suzuki Black Box is a large number of children.Some will lose interest .Some will struggle to use the rest.Some will cope adequately (the way I struggled with a hard plastic Strad model chinrest) .Others will accept the rest without a problem ------For now !----Later the problems will start when they have long left the Suzuki system.
Enter Anton who has thankfully found an excellent solution. More valuable because he was conscious of the changes he was making,as an adult.
It cannot be denied that there are many problems.The children who grew up changed shape.Some collar bones were not able to accomodate the hold so more reliance was placed on the shoulder itself. The idea of the chin- neck - collarbone holding the violin "absolutely securely" sounds like a recipe for disaster. That will cause great leverage and stress if the "idea " is planted so early.
The body of a child will quickly absorb bad habits as quickly as the child`s mind. If the teachers were to tell them ---- not ----to rely on holding up the violin without the left hand it would be a step in the right direction. It`s a Butterfly Effect situation.
The damage caused by over reliance on these rests can be seen all over the internet so I don`t need to repeat all that.
So, sorry Techfiddle, you are out in the cold on the wrong side of the Suzuki Black Box.
Anton (steps bashfully into the limelight) sets us all a shining and slightly difficult example. That just leaves me with my latest design
which does what Anton does without even tensing the neck or chin or jaw to slide down the fingerboard.
That was the purpose of making this two piece rest that I am patenting.(Lets call it a collarbone rest) The IPO people could still kick it into touch as the final tests and checks are still being made. That`s my risk. (As the patent agent said--"It`s worth a punt." He also said ,when I mentioned a book about Jascha Heifetz ,--"Male or female "? What could I say to that? )
So if I don`t get the full patent it is still in the public`s mind.
Suzuki will like it. Thankyou Techfiddle for mentioning them.No disrespect was intended to you about this.You will also like it.
Also , no disrespect was intended to the makers of the clamp-on rests.Everybody did what they thought was right.Sometimes we get to a crossroads and need to make a decision. That`s where we are now.

John Cadd · Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:42 am Post subject:

Becky Have you read the IPO publication and seen the drawings? They show as much as a photo would .The neck piece is not exactly the correct shape as the Patent system is for cataloguing drawings.They simplify everything. The bit near the shoulder muscles is shaped to avoid moving "body parts" (slight shudder there).
I think a photo at this stage would drag in irrelevant details that may cloud the issue. The thing is --I am independant --I could lose the expense of a patent but the idea is out there.That`s what counts.

Amalia · Member Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 129

Strads are definately better. Wink

Amalia · Member Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 129

I really don't understand why there is any argument about shoulder rests. If you like one, use one. If you don't, don't. Great players have gone either way. I just watched a DVD of David Garrett. He uses one, was a student of Itzak Perlman, and plays great (while walking around too, lol)! My Auer books consider it a crime to use one. Oh well. I prefer one myself and am anxious to try out Amezcua's. Smile

And Strads are definately the best. (Okay "my" Strad is the best.) Wink

John Cadd · Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject:

Amalia For the last month I have been chewing over the fit in a case and I have it just right now.The part on the violin has shrunk and is a lot simpler to make. The ideas sometimes come slowly and sometimes I get a free surprise.The most effective aspect was almost accidental.
Anton I read about Chiocchi that he used to sometimes write things inside the belly ,about the political situation.Have you looked inside with a mirror? I thought of a cheeky joke (hope you won`t mind) It was a question. Chi---O ---CChi ? Are you SURE it`s not Chinese? Sorry , couldn`t resist.

John Cadd · Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject:

I think it`s a realisation that lots of players have difficulty with holding a violin. I have noticed a feature of the internet with this topic.
Question-- I have a problem with XYZ.. I do this,I do that, but it never works
Answer -- .Well I do this and I do that and I never have a problem so that`s alright tnen. End of story.
Shoulder rests usually follows this classic formula.
This topic is showing fresh promise.
Anton could do a u tube describing the transition while it`s fresh in his mind.or , certainly , write the details down for later reference.
I hope to chip in with my collar-bone rest. At the end of the day I have worked out a way to hold a slippery wooden box under my chin without dropping it. Nothing specially musical about that.Just my way to say thankyou to all the violin players who brighten my life.
For any nervous players with stage-fright----we are grateful.

AntonPolezhayev · Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:48 am Post subject:

^^ Interesting idea. After I upload a few actual videos of me playing (hopefully playing well, I'll try to do my very best) I will definitely make a video where I explain my humble opinion on shoulder-rest "evilness", what it does, why it exists, and how one can forever be liberated from this problem which doesn't really exist. it's a man-made problem. because there ISN"T a comfortable natural stable position. Violin is a moving changing part of you. it will move, change and move with you depending on what piece you play, what clothes are making contact with it, how much sweat you got on your neck and chin, how the humidity is effecting your grip on the fingerboard, how thick are the clothes you're wearing at the time etc etc etc etc etc

In an attempt to put under control the positioning of the violin we have muffled the sound by squeezing it from two sides by the shoulder rest's legs, we have created distance between our shoulder and the violin, we have disconnected our left hand from the ribs of the violin on which it originally rested. We have even created easier to play metal strings and other gadgets. We have given our head a new task! "Press down on the chinrest!" thou the head originally wasn't even making any contact with the violin... and was free to conduct, show entrances, nod, look around, and be free, loose and happy. Now the head is turned! And it has to press down also...

As result of all this we're now producing a laughable forced sound with stiff disconnected and dead posture where we control the violin almost by remote control... The shoulder rests are getting taller and taller, so are the chinrests. We now put gel pads on the chinrest to prevent slipping and to further kill the vibrating of the chinrest wood (the entire point of making the violin and the chinrest from wood by the way)

Strangely it doesn't cross our minds that a simple chalk prevents all the slipping just the same. NBA players do it, gymnasts do it, those athletes would NEVER put something on their hands or equipment because they need to "feel" it, yet violinists put a gelpad on their chin rest...

I think after Spohr invented the chinrest it was all downhill from there. As often the case we gotta go back to basics! Back to the source! The source is the sound. Sound comes first. Sound without shoulder rest is louder and more resonating.

Like when the Communists in Russia blew up the Cathedral and built an idiotic swimming pool in it's place in Moscow, then they blew up the swimming pool after collapse of Communism, and built the Cathedral back up. We gotta do the same. What we got now is not working. people are unhappy with shoulder rests, they can't find the right kind, they can't find comfort, There are trillions of different chin and shoulder rests, and none are 100% comfy.
I hope Ricci's fantastic work "Ricci on Glissando" picks up steam and makes people try things the way Paganini played, the way Dinicu played, the way Kreisler and Heifetz played, the way it's SUPPOSED to be.

I played as a teenager (with shoulder rest) for Abram Stern, a phenomenal Russian old violinist and teacher. He only said to me: Take that thing off, it's a machine that furthers you from your violin.
I didn't listen to him. I tried it, it was weird, I couldn't play at all... Now I realize that I was right... I indeed couldn't play at all! Shoulder rest was a walking stick, a crutch that helped me believe I was great at walking. it was a car that made me think I was fast, it was a fast food that made me think I just had fillet mignon.

For the record, please don't be offended if you use a shoulder rest. Some of my close friends and colleagues use one and we fight all the time. I'm harmless Smile

*end rant*
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLDeYZXUDDQ

John Cadd · Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:12 am Post subject:

What a great post.Wonderful stuff. Let me put a question for the lady violinists who want to play with bare shoulders. ( I can`t think of anything more uncomfortable myself ).
What happens at the collar bone where the violin edge is "cutting " across the collarbone? Assume that the violin is at 45 degrees.
If you were a circus acrobat you would practice with support ropes until you were sure not to break your neck.Imagine two pieces of thin rope on scroll and endpin with violin swinging gently till we decide to play. Children would manage even that. Serious possibility.

John Cadd · Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:32 am Post subject:

Leucippus I was re-reading these posts and trying to visualise how you manage with a longer neck .You mentioned the gap between chin and shoulder.When you say shoulder ----does the violin edge touch your collar bone or is there no contact at all with the violin edge?That would seem a precarious balancing act. (To me ) Or do you use the side of your neck? It is important to understand and respect how you manage the situation as I have a short neck so I have to think through your eyes. Have you got a high chinrest or is it close to the violin surface?

John Cadd · Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:37 am Post subject:

Leucippus What my question should have included is -----Where does your shoulder start and finish?Are you using the word shoulder to include the collar bone area? The actual shoulder is where the arm muscles are flexing and moving. (For the purposes of this subject ).

Amalia · Member Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 129

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but 15 or so years ago when I began looking into purchasing better violins and hence began discussing this issue of shoulder pads with people, the professional players I spoke to told me that because the design of the modern shoulder pads have almost no contact with the violin itself (they usually only have two "feet" that touch at small points where the sides of the violin meet the top and bottom of the violin), the new rests do not inhibit vibration of the top and back of the violin the way that the older rests (and playing with no rest) does. This of course tends to allow for more volume, more resonance, and a more "open" tone. These same performers described the use of older pads and no pads as having a "muffling" effect.