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Are shoulder rests necessary?
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LSOviolinist
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Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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Location: Los Angeles, California/Boston, Massachusetts/New York, New York

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A note to Amezcua. If your product gets up and running, or you have a few for sale, I would be very interested in purchasing one or at least seeing how it works. I wish you the best of luck in getting it out there and securing your patent. It sounds very promising!
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Chad48309
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Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
Hi Chad,

How do you hold the violin up? Is it held with your left arm/hand? Can you let go without the violin falling?
Do you move your shoulder slightly forward and up and does it get tired?
Do you have a long neck or a short one?

I'm in research mode now, so I need to know what other players are experiencing.

Lemuel

The way I learned how to play, I put the bottom of the violin against my neck, let it rest deftly on my collarbone, then lightly rest my chin against the chinrest. I make a serious effort not to pinch or push the violin in any sort of grip. As my instructor taught me, "hold on loosely, but don't let go. If you cling too tightly, you're gonna lose control." He's pretty famous.

I hold the violin with my left hand. I have a shorter neck than most and average shoulders (neither broad or narrow). I've never had a problem with my shoulder getting tired, honestly. I play in a way where I focus the attention on my arm on making my arm a separate organ from my body. I make little use of my shoulder while playing; it's relaxed and does not move up or down.

I can let the violin go without it falling because of balance. Were I leaning too far forward or too far back, it would probably slide and turn at the point where my chin rests and my shoulder makes contact (but not fall).

Hope that clears it all up.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOviolinist,

Thanks for the link to the video clip on Paul Neubauer. I wished there was more - it was so short.

However, I am sure Paul uses some sort of rest under the violin. I had to watch it around 3 times to be sure, around 2 minutes 13 seconds in to the clip just before he goes to get a chair, you may pause it and you'll see some sort of rest. Sure it's not a large obvious Kun, Viva La Musica, Wolfe or BonMusica shoulder rest, but a good pad at least.

Nevertheless, I see how much at ease he is (and considering his neck is not short and the line joining his neck to the shoulder is quite slanted).
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LSOviolinist
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel,

You are quite right! He does play with a pad, however, it seems close enough to playing without one. I too wish the video was longer and that there was more about instrument position, but it seemed a good insight all the same.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can let the violin go without it falling because of balance


Chad, would you be able to elaborate on this balance that prevents your violin from sliding?

After doing further research, I started a week ago without shoulder rest or pad. At first, there was much discomfort and insecurity around the shoulder and neck area. I also felt some pain on the collar bone.

After a week, I find it most interesting that this insecurity is slowly disappearing. At one point, I lost awareness that the violin was being held without a shoulder rest. I take frequent rests in between and at the moment of continued discomfort, where I then take the opportunity to do some visualization. The collar bone is a little tender also.

Quote:
I make little use of my shoulder while playing; it's relaxed and does not move up or down.


Since I don't have a short neck, I cannot see the violin being held in it's place without lifting the shoulder forward and up a little. On one of Heifetz's videos, I also noticed his shoulders doing the same. I also have met a couple of good violinist that also tilt forward there shoulders a little.


Last edited by Lemuel on Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chad48309
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel wrote:
Chad, would you be able to elaborate on this balance that prevents your violin from sliding?

Sure. Because it can pivot easily from where my chin holds it down, I've taught myself never to lean too far forward or too far backward. It's second-nature to me, now. If I leaned forward or backward, the violin would pivot in that direction. Would it fall? Not sure. Never tried it. Don't plan to.

Lemuel wrote:

Since I don't have a short neck, I cannot see the violin being held in it's place without lifting the shoulder forward and up a little. On one of Heifetz's videos, I also noticed his shoulders doing the same. I also have met a couple of good violinist that also tilt forward there shoulders a little.

Guess I'm just blessed with unsightly physical features.
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Andres Sender
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lemuel--I have read the Ricci book. It's a very interesting and useful book, but I wouldn't say it's the answer to the shoulder rest issue. There's quite a bit of discussion about it over at violinist.com which you can find with searches. Same thing with people's experience adapting to playing without a shoulder rest. Indeed there's a link to a video over there in which someone demonstrates Amezcua's device and talks about their experiences going restless.

LSO--the thing about Paganini is not to say no one should use a rest, but is only brought up as an answer to those who insist a rest is necessary. Smile
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Andres,

Great to hear from you. Many thanks for the tip. I got Amezcua's "device" late last week and is now under review. I could not find the video posted on violinist.com. Could you please send me a link?
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CherryBlossom
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Ouch! Reply with quote

I'm not sure about anyone else, but my shoulder rest has these metal bars underneath my violin, and they hurt, and I don't know if there's something you can get to cover them or anything. I have alot of difficulty playing as soon as I use it, and my shoulder gets bruised. Haha I think I might just be an idiot.
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Andres Sender
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lemuel. Here's the thread, the first post has links to several videos:

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=18290
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Andres,

Thanks for the link. This is really informative.

As Mat has said, your posts in the forum are very helpful.
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Lemuel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Amezcua,

I first tried playing with just the small pad that attaches to the chinrest clamps. It felt a little more comfortable around the collar bone area. However I couldn't help but notice a tickle or prick like sensation on the inflexible plastic part of the small pad (the one that folds up).

I also tried the larger shoulder pad (or what I would call the collar bone pad). That really increased the comfort somewhat. I am quite bony person with long neck. So my collar bone sticks out somewhat and I have not much muscle or fat around it. I also notice quite a firm grip of the violin between my chin and shoulder when both pads are installed. There is no sliding which makes it feel secure.

Then I tried the larger shoulder pad without the small pad (I took it off), and I found it a tad less comfortable and the violin had less of a grip.

Since I try new violins often, I feel the larger pad would be more applicable in my situation. I would simply have it on around my neck throughout the session of trying different violins. For the smaller pad on the chinrest clamp, untwisting the plastic wire tie off and on other violins would be more time consuming and difficult than the Kun shoulder rest.

Overall, I think your idea of having a shoulder or collar bone rest around the neck instead of attaching it to the violin is a good idea since it simply simulates thicker clothing.

I believe it may help to find some sort of light internal material that would adjust to the shape around the collarbone area, since the profile around here is different for each person. The Playonair rest comes to my mind here, but attached to the player instead.
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Andres Sender
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lemuel, thanks for the kind words.

Thinking about your need for something that doesn't have to be moved from violin to violin, a sort of universal pad that conforms underneath as you say, and which has a high-friction top surface sounds like the ticket. Maybe the stuff some people advocate, the rubbery stuff you get for covering shelves would work. I worry that it may not be safe for all varnishes, but to date I have not heard any horror stories about its use as a shoulder pad.
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lemuel Sorry to take so long to find this thread again. I will have to read it back to check on the bits I missed.
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John Cadd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSO I have some rests ready . One part needs a chinrest clamp to hold onto. Is that going to be awkward? I am adapting the collar part for separate use. That might suit you better.
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