Violin Forum/Message Board

Ajakoda · Junior Member Joined: 10 Jun 2009 Posts: 3

Okay so the last few times i've open my violin case my bow has had 2 or more strains of horse hair loose. I don't know why..

Does this mean that i need to get the horse hair replaced? Am i loosening the hair too much before i put it up?

Its not like the case is going through any handling, i simply put it under my bed when im done and it stays there undesturbed until i get it out again (only to find a few loose hairs).

Any suggestions?

Leucippus · Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:

I don't know if this will be related to your experience or not, but I'll share an exerience I had in the past.

It was wintertime and I was heating with wood. The air was dry and it was sucking moister out of everything.

At that time I noticed that my bows were starting to lose hairs. I also found that I wasn't getting the dept of tone I like. I was having other slight problems too, like getting scratches and squeaks once in a while if I wasn't real careful. At first I thought it was just me getting too relaxed about playing.

But then I read an article about bows and the affect of arid environments. Some people use humity-controlled violin cases. Or put humidors inside them when in arid climates.

I also learned a slick trick. I read an article that suggested running water over the bow strings to dampen them, and then letting them dry again before playing to re-humidify the strings. This was a suggestion by a guy that actually had good luck with that process.

So I tried it. It worked wonders. Not only did my bows quit shedding, but I found that they were also much more 'grabby'.

I got far deeper tone and better overall performance.

I'm not suggesting that you hose down your bow. Especially if its an expensive one. Mine were cheap bows that came with cheap violins so I had nothing to lose.

But it worked for me.

A less drastic measure might be to simply hang the bow in a humid place for a while. Like maybe the bathroom when you take a shower. Not in the shower, but just in the bathroom. The steam from the shower can humidify the bow.

If this is your problem. It may not be.

It could even be the other way around if your in too humid of a climate.

I just know that weting the bow strings down worked for me. I soaked the strings under a running facet. It won't wash off the rosin because the rosin is not water soluable. Then I let the bow dry overnight, and the next day it was far better than ever before. And it quit shedding hairs too. I found that during the winter, because I heat with wood, I needed to wet down my bows about every two weeks.

I don't know if this is your problem or not. I'm just sharing my experience for whatever it's worth.

My bows are cheap bows too. So keep that in mind.

ollieken · Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: bow hair

Ajakoda
Run asearch for bow problem on this site At the top of this page under violin forum message board clk on search Lot of info that may give you
a clue to your problem Ken

Mat Roop · Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject:

Ajakoda.... where is the hair breaking?..
Option 1-....If you can see both ends of the break, then the problem is the hair or storage. Wetting will help make the hair more flexible and less brittle (but not a long term solution) usually this is a sign of either old dried out hair, low quality hair or you may have bow bugs
http://ezinearticles.com/?Whats-Eating-Your-Violin-Bow-Hair?--It-Might-Be-Bow-Bugs&id=2461787
In this case I recommend a rehair ... but always insist on the best grade of hair available! Did you know that bow hair comes in a variety of qualities...
1-Hair raised in cold climates is best... canadian, siberian, mongolian or even argentinian
2-Use only stallion hair... Mare's hair is brittle because of their anatomy and the effect if uric acid
3-Be sure it is unbleached. Cheap hair is discolored so they bleach it, but that will make it brittle
BTW... I always recommend that you never store your violin or bow in the case.... cases are for protection during transportation. Keeping your violin in the open keeps it alive with all the sound in a normal home... its like playing it and the more you play the better it sounds. Likewise with the bow... out in the open it will not be attacked by bugs ... and after all they are both beautiful pieces of useful art... why hide them?!
Option 2- If the break appears at one end or the other and seems to be hidden in the head or frog, you may have a loose knot, and as time goes on more and more hair will fall out until the whole hank comes loose. ... no solution to this except a rehair. Therefore... be sure when you do get a broken hair.... never pull the ends to break it off... cut it, otherwise you could be pulling it out of the knot and starting the knot loosening process.
Cheers, Mat

Shirley · Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject:

Leu: Thank you for the suggestion of wetting the bow hair as a "restorative." It is certainly an alternative to washing the bow hair, as I am wont to do when I think the occasion warrants it. But then, of course, if one does a good shampoo job, rosin must be generously reapplied, and if too much gook was the problem in the first place,well, there you are.

I tried your method last night on a recalcitrant bow (this is not an inexpensive bow, but I have never had any problem washing bows, so I was not skittish) and it sounds just fine this morning. I was going to have this bow rehaired this fall, because I was so dissatisfied with it, but perhaps getting the hair humidified, or the scales relifted, or whatever, has given the bow a retrieve. I am very pleased.

Thanks. Shirley

Leucippus · Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:52 pm Post subject:

Hi Shirely,

I'm glad to hear that you had positive results with re-humidifying the bow hair.

It definitely helped my bows during the winter months. As I say, they also quit shedding. If the hairs get too dry they'll get brittle and crack and break easily I guess.

Also, after re-humidifying the hair it even played much better. More 'grabby'. When it was real dry it was prone to slipping, squeaking, and scratching far more easily. Much fuller tone with humid hair too.

I'm glad it worked for you. Very Happy

Since I learned this trick I've shared it with other violinists and some were already aware of it and took it even further. They actually shampooed the hair (like you've done) but then in addition to that they actually used a hair conditioner afterward.

I've never tried that. I might try it someday though. I have about a half a dozen bows here. And some are pretty cheap so it could be an experiment.

It makes me laugh because I can just see a cartoon where violinists are dropping their bows off at a hair salon for permanents. Laughing

So far, I've stuck with just using plain water. I would be afraid of conditioner in the fear that it would make it 'slippery'. But I get the rosin overrides that? I dunno.

Musicalion · Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: wetting bow hair

fascinating discussion...hope a bowmaker will weigh in here on whether this is actually to be recommended for expensive bows...
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Leucippus · Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:35 am Post subject: Re: wetting bow hair

Shirley · Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject:

Leu - First, I just want to tell you that my viola bow produced an even better tone the second day. At this rate, I'll be the female Primrose in no time!

I was interested in the fact that other violinists had heard of this "trick" and had used it. Whenever I mention "washing the bow hair" I get frowns and "no-no"s from many people, including most luthiers on forum sites. I don't really know why, if one is careful not to get the tip and frog attachments wet. I would like to know, though.

I had never heard of using a conditioner after the shampoo. Dropping bows off at the salon for a wash-dry is pretty funny! I have always used detergent to wash my bows, though others have used shampoo. Like you, I figured all the gunk in shampoo and conditioner might cancel out the cleaning.

Perhaps the people who don't like the idea of washing or rinsing bow hair do not live in such low-humidity areas? (I live in the foothills west of Denver, and do not need to have a nifty wood fire to get this dry air!)

Anyhoo, I have rinsed a second (good) bow this morning, as I am so pleased with the results on the first, and I thank you again!

Shirley

Leucippus · Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject:

ollieken · Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject: rosin

Shirley
What Brand of rosin are you using ? Someone said use A hard
rosin in summer & A soft one in winter maybe someone could give
their thought on that I find a soft rosin makes a lot of dust . Ken

Shirley · Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject:

Ken - at present I use Liebenzeller Gold II (I play viola), but it seems to have dried out. Or at least it doesn't seem to come off the bow hair onto the strings. After the hydrating, process, though, without reapplying any additional rosin, the hair worked great, so I suppose there was enough rosin there.

This is a dark, and therefore a softer(?) rosin - likewise the Andrea Gold and also David, but they didn't seem to work as well at the old Tartini - or my imagination didn't.

Someone just asked me two days ago whether I used different rosin in the summer and winter, and I had never heard of that before! It is so dry here year-round that I wonder if it would make a difference? I haven't looked to see where you live - in a normal climate?

I would like to hear more about this too! Thanks for bring it up.

Ajakoda hasn't returned? I hope her problem was solved by your advice, Ken.

Shirley

ollieken · Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: rosin

Shirley
I rehaired my bow & did not like the new hair so i washed the old hair & cut the old knot not all the way as the hair was at it`s limit on the frog put a new knot in & it works great .
I have had this Hair in for two years & lost a lot more hair on my head than on the bow. I have seen a post maybe on this forum .He was having trouble with rosin not going on so he ran hot water on the rosin cake let it dry a bit that works I belive he was playing viola .

I live in New Brunswick Canada Not far from the bay of fundy .
We have had rain for 18 days straight til a week ago we are not dry here .

Would like to hear more on Rosin post . Ken

Shirley · Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject:

Ollie ~ (Ken) I'm finding more and more times that a "good" rehairing job just isn't that great - from my (and my teacher's) highly qualified luthier, no less. Which is why I tried this wetting business. You seem to have worked magic with your bow! With the old hair, yet! Fascinating!

I thank you a lot for the hint on how to reactivate rosin - I've tried just dabbing a little water on it in the hpe of accomplishing something, but I going to see if the hot water idea works - I thank you for that!

Since it is not particularly dry there
Laughing

perhaps rinsing does more than just moisturize the bow? Hmmm. If anyone has anything more to say about rosin, I'd like to hear it too, although it is such a personal preference thing.

Thanks for the post, and watch out not to drown! It's cold up there, too!

Shirley

Mat Roop · Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject:

Just a few quick thoughts on previous posts... I am not a player and I am not an expert on bows or hair but I do a fair bit of bow repairs and rehair perhaps two or three dozen bows a year and here is what I have found...
1- Nothing wrong with washing the hair (although I never do)... just don't use a bleach or detergent that will dry out the hair. Don't use conditioners as they do contain oils and can soften the rosin akin to getting finger oils on the hair & rosin
2- Beware that when washing the hair, water MUST NOT GET IN THE HEAD... otherwise you risk the possibility of expanding the wedge and blowing out the cheek of the bow head.... the frog is not quite as delicate
3- you don't need to wash the hair to hydrate... just dab water on the hair with a clean wet towel
4-A good rehair is dependent on the quality of work and the materials used. When freshly rehaired, and softly tensioned, the hair must lay absolutely flat, with absolutely no kinky or loose hair and must be in an evenly flat and thin ribbon of equal tension on either side of the ribbon. Too often there is too much hair in the ribbon. The quality of hair should be the best... only hair from cold climates, unbleached and from only a stallion (due to the effect of uric acid) and triple selected with 180 to 220 hairs per hank. BTW... There are not many good rehairers.
5- a new rehair takes several hours of playing to properly distribute the rosin
Cheers... Mat