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power output reduction with action lowering ?????

 
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jethro
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Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:33 am    Post subject: power output reduction with action lowering ????? Reply with quote

I just got done re-bridgeing and posting my violin. I had a bridge on it made of unknown wood and it never improved with use. I cut a new one
(aubert 3 star) and did a conservative (?) ammount of trimming and thinning and cut it for full string clearance about 5/2.5. I am used to
a lower action but I wanted to start a little high. Made freash post too.
WWWWOOOOOOWWWWW what a GREAT improvement. Now the strings
are VEEERRRYYY sensative to the slightest brush of a hair ona string.
and vollume was much better.... only downside the strings were hurting
my fingers a little. So I lowered the action a little bit. Trimmed the top of the bridge and thinned the edge a little to match the previous edge width.
More cophortable to play but I lost some vollume and smoothness under
the bow. (still much better but lost a little- I HATE loosing ANY ! )
Is this expected as a resuly of this small string angle change ?
I am considering making a new finger board that is a little higher over
the belly to reproduce the steeper string angle and have the lower
action I have now. Has anyone tried this manouver ????????????????
TB.
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MANFIO
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Sao Paulo

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! You could try also increasing the string afterlength (distance from tailpiece fret to the bridge) up to 55 or 60 milimeters, in order to get more tension on the strings.

To increase the angle of the neck you can unglue the top from the ribs from the upper corners to the upper block, tilt the neck back to the desired position and reglue it on this new position.
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget to fit a shim in the space under the sole of the neck where it meets the top.

Reducing bridge height will result in less tension and therefore a reduction in sound volume.
5 and 2.5 are LOW to begin with, I am wondering what the height of the bridge is at the center.
You can eiher do as manfio describes, that will bring some tension back to the instrment but you will need to cut a new bridge.
it is easier than removing the FB, planing the back a bit more at the top than at the bottom and regluing.

Jack H.
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Jeffrey Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jack H. wrote:
Reducing bridge height will result in less tension and therefore a reduction in sound volume.


I think you've been offered good advice by Manfio and Jack, but I'm not sure I'd completely agree with the statement above (at least not as a "blanket statement")... although it may be true in your specific circumstance.

Increasing the bridge height (with a fixed neck projection) will increase tension, and lowering it will decrease tension, but this does not always yield an increase or decrease in volume. Certain instruments thrive on more severe neck/string angles. Others are choked by them. Arch shape, material, thickness of the plates, and box volume are variables that effect the outcome... The goal is to determine what bridge height (not string height) and neck angle work for the example at hand.

Here are a couple generalizations that illustrate my point:

On many older, classic Italian fiddles (especially Amati, Ruggeri, early Strad, filius Andrea and even del Gesu), a healthy bridge height must be accompanied by a healthy "overstand" (projection of the neck heal above the top plate) in order to work properly. A higher overstand actually decreases the neck angle. Finding this balance allows the instruments to project sound without undue tension... the result; they sound louder; project more effectively, are more responsive.

On the other hand, many instruments from mid 19th century Turin (like Rocca or Pressenda instruments) seem to do quite well with a healthy bridge height and a lower overstand.

Experimenting with a higher or lower bridge (within reasonable parameters), as you have, can give a good indication as to what one might expect... but be aware that there are other things going on when the height of the bridge is altered (it's mass; the action of the strings)... and if you choose to increase the neck projection (and the bridge height in proportion to that projection) in the way described above, you are tilting the nut end of the board back (which will increase the angle/tension in itself; in addition to the resulting higher bridge). You may want to try going a little easy (split the difference) to get the results you desire.
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Last edited by Jeffrey Holmes on Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:27 pm; edited 3 times in total
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KenN
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Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Goodrich, MI

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5mm to 2.5mm is low? Mine is set up 4.5-2.5 and with the figerboard curve they are still about that at the neck. To me (I've only played guitars, and I say played very loosely!) the action seems high! The stings feel nice and flexible and easy to stop, but they do seem to get in the way of each other when bowing when one is stopped you almost have to stop it's neighbor to get it out of the way. They seem a LONG way off the FB. It's probably that I don't know how to play. My bridge is about 32mm and the string angle is about 158. That would be considered a low action?
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Mat Roop
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 911
Location: Wyoming Ontario

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everthing you do will have an effect, and I suspect most things have been tried... If you are into detail, check out the articles in this site.
http://www.violinbridges.co.uk/ref.php?link=main#
Many of the articles are way too technical for me (although you can likely get the gist of what they are talking about) but the article BRIDGING THE DIVIDE. is very practical for starters. A thick bridge acts as a mute....you can try to compensate with a higher action...but you may get better and cleaner results with a thinner and well considered bridge ajustment.... easier on the fingers and the violin too!
Cheers, Mat
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Jeffrey Holmes
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Ann Arbor

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KenN wrote:
5mm to 2.5mm is low? Mine is set up 4.5-2.5 and with the figerboard curve they are still about that at the neck. To me (I've only played guitars, and I say played very loosely!) the action seems high! The stings feel nice and flexible and easy to stop, but they do seem to get in the way of each other when bowing when one is stopped you almost have to stop it's neighbor to get it out of the way. They seem a LONG way off the FB. It's probably that I don't know how to play. My bridge is about 32mm and the string angle is about 158. That would be considered a low action?


Some players like things on the high side, others on the low side. My clients average preferences are 3.5-3.8 mm for the E string and 5 to 5.5 mm for the G string (these heights are considered standard).

If yours are feeling "high" at 2.5 and 4.5, I'd check to make sure the nut height is correct (a high nut can make the strings feel high). If the nut is OK, it may simply be that you like lower string heights... not too much of a problem as long as your fingerboard is dressed correctly.
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KenN
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Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Goodrich, MI

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if they feel high or just loose. I remember seeing Charro(?) playing guitar on Martha Stewart and her strings were very, very loose and you could see her moving them all over the board, for intonation I guess. The tension on violin strings must be less then on the guitar I've played.
I'll check my nut height, that may have been one of the things the guys at the violin shop said looked a little off.
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Jack H.
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 346
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

should also check the scoop of the fingerboard.
if the scoop is too exagerated then the strings will feel high even if the indications (measurements taken at the end of the fingerboard) say they are low.
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