Violin Forum/Message Board

John Cadd · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: Viols and violins

When reading about the history of violins there was a reference to the Church and how they banned the playing of violins in houses of ill repute and only allowed viols to be used.So the question to the members of this venerable forum is --Have you ever played a violin in a house of ill repute and if so did the patrons show their appreciation?

caeman · Member Joined: 11 Dec 2008 Posts: 143

Exactly what are we calling a house of ill-repute? Twisted Evil

techfiddle · Member Joined: 17 Jun 2009 Posts: 122

This must be some sort of off-color joke because historically, in the early history of both of these instruments, quite the opposite was true: the viols were the instruments played by wealthy and educated people, while:

John Cadd · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: viols and violins

This was from what I read of the history of Mersenne who was keenly involved with musical instruments ,string vibrations,and of course Mathematics.A modern reader would perhaps be surprised at how much freedom a monk in that era would have to get involved in such activities.As a member of the Minims he was left to pursue his interests and as long as he towed the official Church line he was quite secure.I shall try to dig out the exact reference.I wanted to fill in the European scene in that era.France had a more liberal attitude to new ideas in terms of what the Church allowed.These references to the Church are related to Power and Influence more than Religion as such. Gallileo found that out to his cost. Please restrict all discussions on this to viols and violins .And what exactly do we mean by off-colour?

techfiddle · Member Joined: 17 Jun 2009 Posts: 122

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John Cadd · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject:

Techfiddle . Commas ?,,,,Full Stops..?....You are such hard work mate!
Sorry ---Excuse the exclamation mark there.
Everything I was talking about-----Not lecturing you may notice,just talking,was from the Viola da Gamba Society of America.They seem to know something about it but feel free to put them straight on their facts ,,,,,,,,,,, punctuation .........,,,,,,,////....and a few medieval spelling mistakes.(Oh Mrs Jones you musn`t put your chin that side of the end piece it`s not authentic.)Give me a break.
French Legal Ordinaires March 27th 1628.--Forbidding all musicians to play in ale houses and irreputable places -the descant ,bass,or other members of the violon family rather only the Rebec.Fine 24 livres or destruction of instruments.
Don`t expect me to crawl to you on my knees with all your references so forget it.

John Cadd · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:58 am Post subject:

Well as you can tell from my rant I am certainly no scholarly historian.
My subject title is wrong for starters as the viol is a much more elaborate instrument compared with a rebec.The comment about violins banned in houses of blah di blah (pas devant les enfants) was a touch of Monty Python humour.The whole idea in modern times would seem laughable. The difference between a viol and a rebec was a mystery to me as much as the names of the weeds in my garden path. I was looking to see how close Mersenne got to the world of violins as we know them.
As a surprise I found that these simpler early instruments also used soundposts .(rebecs sometimes with and sometimes without).
For some reason I always thought that was invented by Amati.There was a motoring programme on tv where they tried to pin down which was the first car to have the modern layout of controls .The first proper car. What would be the features that set the violin apart as a distinct instrument ? Centre bouts had been used .Was it the proportion of top bout to bottom bout?Scrolls don`t count. Shape and tilt of f holes are just a small detail like sound quality.( testing,testing ).How about air volume ?
Many regarded violins as strident.Many regarded rebecs as strident.
Another surprise was viols were made with double tops which was tried by guitarists.
Overall , from the historical documents ,you can see that a lot of people were quite happy to try their own experiments to choose the sound they wanted .I always got the impression that Amati and a handful of makers did it all on their own.
Even Mersenne was scratching his head wondering why the sound post was not under the thickest strings.
None of this is difficult to look up and you don`t need to believe a word of it if you don`t want to.It`s a casual bystanders point of view.
Think of a building site with a large fence.I`m the chap looking in giving the foreman the benefit of my experience.

techfiddle · Member Joined: 17 Jun 2009 Posts: 122

Well, okay; the viola da gamba is a completely different issue altogether. Bringing that in only muddies the waters of an already extremely muddy mess.
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John Cadd · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject:

Viola da gamba---That`s the big one , yeh? I`m almost afraid to come on this site .Severe is not the word.But you certainly know your stuff.Hope you can excuse my lack of background.Aside from Mersenne I had an idea to see where Shakespeare came into the violin picture.Yesterday the latest copy of Strad magazine dropped on the mat with a picture of Shakespeare on the cover. Damn!