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"Song" v. work, or piece, etc., Does this bother y
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:56 pm    Post subject: "Song" v. work, or piece, etc., Does this bother y Reply with quote

Does it bother you when people call a piece of music a "song"? That is, if it's *not* a song -- if it's *not* an aria, or art song, or country song, or pop song, etc. Granted, the pieces in the Suzuki book are "songs" up to but not including the first Minuets. And I can accept that. But why call a symphony or sonata or even an opera a "song?"
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Last edited by techfiddle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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caeman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on the people involved, said correcting of the person could come across as snobbery, or intellectual elitism. For many of us, we know what you are referring to via context what is meant, without need for being anal retentive about specific words.

There are some irish trad folks that get all grammar Nazi when someone mixes up 'song' and 'tune'.
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caeman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think about this way...when you take your car in to have a problem checked out, you do your best to describe what it is that feels/sounds wrongs. Do you want the mechanic sitting you down for a hour and schooling you on proper terminology? Or do you just want the problem fixed and hope they can figure it out?
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guilty, among other things, of posting this everywhere. My sense is that if it really bothers someone, they are in the distinct minority. And they're usually teachers.
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Last edited by techfiddle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caeman wrote:
Depending on the people involved, said correcting of the person could come across as snobbery, or intellectual elitism. For many of us, we know what you are referring to via context what is meant, without need for being anal retentive about specific words.

There are some irish trad folks that get all grammar Nazi when someone mixes up 'song' and 'tune'.



Yes but some people -- most frequently people who for whatever reasons have not had the advantage of higher education -- will take nearly anything that sounds even slightly intellectual as being "snobbery, or intellectual elitism." An example of this is a person I was on a date with, many moons ago, who was offended by me saying "film" rather than "movie." Another male told me that what turned him off was that I was (at that time) "always talking about computers."

This is pure know-nothingism.

There is snobbery, and then there is snobbery. John-John Kennedy used to make fun of people who were snobs and wanted to associate with him because of his family connections. That is one thing. It is quite another thing to be offended by the slightest mention of anything intellectual, or the use of any terms of art in one's profession. That is not a legitimate objection to snobbery, it's stupidity.
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one person who was really bothered by this was a fellow on Maestronet, I believe in his '70's.
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Last edited by techfiddle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Amalia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doesn't bother me at all. It can be kind of quaint and charming at times, like Itzak Perlman calling his Strad a "fiddle".
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amalia wrote:
I doesn't bother me at all. It can be kind of quaint and charming at times, like Itzak Perlman calling his Strad a "fiddle".


Yes, but when he says that, he's not talking about the American genre "fiddle," but Eastern European fiddle, which is an entirely different matter.

See:

Are the violin and the fiddle the same instrument?
http://beststudentviolins.com/StringCareSpecs.html#3
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Amalia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, only God knows what he is really thinking, right? Wink

Personally, I'm not offended. I am currently studying a second language and it's given me new insight into the use of words. They move, they change, they evolve, they don't remain the same forever. Whatever words the early violinists used to describe their shorter works probably corresponded to our modern word "song" anyway.

Meanwhile, I must say that it is my opinion that there is a bit too much snobbery in classical music circles today. Frankly, it's driving newcomers away, and we NEED newcomers or our art will die.
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think there's a distinction between an international recording artist calling a violin a fiddle, and the use of the term in most contexts.
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Last edited by techfiddle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Amalia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Perlman's "culture" there is no "imaginary" diety, only the One true Creator of heaven and earth, and He values humility.

BTW, the Psalms (songs) of David were/are all set to music and were played by stringed instruments (the forerunners of the violin) as well as being sung by voices.
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>In Perlman's "culture" there is no "imaginary" diety, only the One true Creator of heaven and earth, and He values humility.

May I be permitted to disagree with you? You're saying Perlman's religious? Not really...there are plenty of atheists in that tradition. I can name them if you like. Einstein, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens - just bunches and bunches. And lots of Jews attend religious services but are complete non-believers and only attend for cultural reasons.
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Last edited by techfiddle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:20 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Amalia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Depending on the people involved, said correcting of the person could come across as snobbery, or intellectual elitism. For many of us, we know what you are referring to via context what is meant, without need for being anal retentive about specific words.

There are some irish trad folks that get all grammar Nazi when someone mixes up 'song' and 'tune'.


I totally agree, Caeman.
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techfiddle
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:01 am    Post subject: Snobbery and reverse snobbery Reply with quote

I agree that most people think academic writing is boring, Amalia.
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Last edited by techfiddle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Amalia
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. But nevertheless, besides being a mom, I am a published author and don't feel at all "uncomfortable" with technically correct language. However, I began coming to this forum and have enjoyed this forum precisely because it has not historically, been as snobbish as many of the other music forums I've visited. I enjoy conversing with players of all levels without putting down or being put down. I enjoy sharing in the great adventure of learning to play the violin without pretense and snobbery.

And btw, it's not so much what one says, but how one says it that makes one appear snobbish (and words reveal what is in the heart). I'm sure that everyone would appreciate knowing the "correct" terms for various pieces of music if the information is shared in a helpful, rather than critical, "holier-than-thou" attitude.

Just my opinion.
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