Violin Forum/Message Board

jethro · Member Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 178

I am sure this has been asked several times but I couldn't find it by the search fcn.
If I was considering being a professional violin maker , I think I would
have to consider what would be a reasonable number of man hours for
construction (3 weeks-6 weeks -12 weeks? more? ) to get an idea of how many I could produce in a year. I would have to consider the quality of
sound and craftsmanship of what I produced to set a price that would not
be TOO high to sell. I'm not sure about overhead but let's say that is
zero even though we know it wouldn't be. ( I won't have rent !)
I hope by the time I get to my 3-rd instrument to be able to produce one
equivilent to a 1800-2000$ factory made instrument.
Also, are we ALL competeing against the chinese or are there many
musicians that will prefer a non-chinese instrument (??????)
What would you professional but relatively low vollume makers say is
a typical # of man hours for what you consider a very good instrument
(say one a city symphony player would find good as an every day player)

I know I will be getting faster and gaining precision and efficiency durring
construction with each one built. Can I succeed at it financialy ???????

What do you think ??????????????????

MANFIO · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:27 am Post subject:

Hi! I've made this viola in one month working 6 hours a day from Sunday to Sunday:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

But I have almost 30 years of experience.

Repairs and adjustments are much more profitable.

I think an instrument a month is mandatory if you want to live as a professional maker, and the price must be at least 8 K.

And yes, you will have to make a good looking and a better sounding violin than most of your Chinese competitors, that are selling good violins for 5K (and they can live 3 years with that money in China...). That poses an incredible obstacle for young makers today...

If you have made just 3 instruments perhaps it's the case of gaining more experience before taking it as a profession, I think. It will depend on how old you are and how much money you need to live too. Good luck!
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

Ken Pollard · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject:

Speaking from the trenches of student-level repair....

You can make a living, but not enough money if you aren't more or less obsessed with violins. If you are obsessed, then you can get by.

On the other hand, many of us in instrument work have side jobs to feed our habit. I teach part-time at a college. By its nature, working on instruments has its cycles. You save some money in the high times to get thru the low times.

There was a luthier that won a lottery the other day, I guess around $100k. When asked what he would do, he replied that he'd just keep making instruments until he used it all up.

In the $2000 range for new violins, you are certainly competing with Chinese and Eastern European instruments, and they have gotten much better in recent years. If you consider the time required to make an instrument, $2000 per won't get you very far if you live in the U.S.

MANFIO · Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject:

Yes, having it as a side job is a good option. I have another side job also and that gives me lots of freedom, I can make the models I want, the sound I like, the colour of the varnish, etc.
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

jethro · Member Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 178

Wow, I didn't realise the base price would have to be as high as 8 K.
The most expensive instruments I can find in my town are about 3 K
range (romanian or german) I think I will have to learn , from the
players point of view, what an 8K does acousticly that the 2K one lacks.
How much of the differences between 2-3k and 8K are sound (if any)
and how much are cosmetic like the delicateness of the edge work or
the scroll or varnish ?
Sounds like I should do a couple of more instruments to acess how high
in the acoustic learning curve I am. If I can't make an 8K SOUNDING
instrument yet then I have the cart before the horse ! Smile

I'm not sure how long it would take me to make an instrument because
I never get to do it non-stop without interuption.... I keep getting interupted for a week here and a couple of weeks there.........

In any event it looks like I will need to be able to build a VERY sexy
looking instrument as well as sounding way above average.

Thanks Manfio, I will go look at your pictures right now !

ps .... I AM an obcesses maker ..... Smile

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: this is what i know

first of all i'm a contractor in an area that has very high real estate values, for me this is a good thing, however the work is very demanding, not such a good thing..

regarding your plan to make the big bucks...at first i had this grandious idea in my head about becoming the next generation amati...however after more research and having the distinct inside perspective of a top flight player{my girlfreind is assistant principal in a certain orchestra} and well its been interesting as she's been looking for a new instrument....so she has a croen....tom croen is a "modern maker" an award winner...makes damm good fiddles and is a hell of a nice guy....he's getting around 20,000 for a new one...and dose lots of repair work on nice ones around the area....i think he puts about 10 weeks on average in to one...i'm not sure of the exact figure....as mentioned in earliey post, a couple of high dollar cremona violins were on test drive, they were going for about 40,000 to 60,000...belive me with these older instruments, theres lots of barginig room...always the smell of snakeoil and fresh varnish in the air....then lets take david langsather....a super cool guy....with a super cool website{google his name} he's a great teacher and a brilliant mind...however he's probably "newish" as far as years of experience goes i think he's got most stuff going for around 4000....he puts in LOTS of time making one.....

so what does this all mean....

#1 top players in orchestras and groups of privledge want really good violins...they cost atleast 10,000 for starter modles

#2 3000 to 5000 won't get you much

#3 theres LOTS of competition from guys that have been doing this for years

#4 the price one will fetch for a fiddle can vary dramatically regardless of time spent constructing

#5 as my girlfreind said..."build violins that sound really good, the way "we" {pro players} want...and people will buy them

#6 visual constuction is a very minor part of the over all pakage related to a violin...in essence you have to have a tonal ear....you have to know how to shape the wood and tune it also....as well as have heard sevral what would be considerd top flight violins in top flight hands to even know what your shooting for...recordings of great sounding violins will not do....you must be in the room, you must hear it in various sized rooms and conditions....so after three violins...that might be a little optimistic....but hey anythings possible.....

#7 and by no means am i an expert....i have'nt even finished my first....

but so far no big mistakes i think it will take about 4 weeks at 10-14 hours a day....if this were a construction project i was working on i would want to relize around 45,000 for this amount of time...as good as everything goes so far....i think i'd be lucky to get someone to offer me 150.00 for it....but dude...i'm on my way i'm looking at like 500 after 30....hahaha good luck...cause after qaulity wood and construction...thats all it is anyway....witha little bit of science mixed in...

jethro · Member Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 178

Jess:
I'm not looking for the "boatload of money" that some immagine 300 year old strads going for. My thought with the question was --- can I just survive at first-- can I limp through the first year - while gaining more
experience???? If I could make 30-40 K that would be fine ! If I can
do 10 per year that's 3k each (before taxes too)

My first one came out a little homely in the details but the sound was
WAY better than I could have hoped for. several makers have remarked
that it shouldn't sound as good as it does according to how it looks. It's
dimentions were a little non-standard. Instrument #2 which will be done soon will be traditional measurements. So I really don't know yet if it's
sound was an accident that I won't know how to re-create(?????)
I have ha a professional player (playing 60+years) test it and she said
it was good for #1, and maybe 1500-2000$ (!)

I have been training my ear to "hear" quality of sound. I play every
expensive instrument I can , listen to recorded and live players that are
very good, I have been taking lessons too. If I don't educate my self
it will be like a blind painter trying to improve his craft !

I may indeed have to join home depot part time !
but I will still be making violins.
but if I could do it full time I would be happy to !

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:41 am Post subject:

to some extent my freind i think you've hit on the mystery and ADDICTION to this craft..things don't have to look good to sound right....years of experience cannot replace dumb luck....accedental furtune....its kinda like gambling addiction i imagine....if only i can hit that jackpot again...just once more...perhaps like poker i can become "trained" and increase my chances of success over and over again....so i like you like the rest of us here have been bitten by this strange quest to bring life out of the death of the tree...never let me or anyone discourage you from going big....i think like the rest of these guys said...at first, repair work probably pays the bills and hones the skills {hey that rhymed} and slowly building up clientel will start the "word".....from what i've seen it make ALL the difference if you win some awards....build them and enter them in contest's ...also sales stratagy will determine much with profit...who do you know who can boost your "level" i always suggest taking the "premadonna approach"....put out exceptional qaulity, have excellent service AND SELL TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE... i belive this stratagy yeilds slower results but in the long run pays off with a better reputation.....for example holding out, perfecting the craft a bit, then making some good instuments...then selling those instruments to people will give your instrument exposer in the "right circles".....elswise one may be doomed to "high school" level sales as thats what you may become known for...even if your violins become better and better, you may not get the kind of money you would want because pro orchestra players don't know you exist....frankly i have so much respect for anyone who can make good money doing this...in my world...everyones got a home i can improve or build on.....but pro violinist are so rare {more so than ever} that comparitivly speaking to what i do there is virtually no clients....and only pros {in general} will pay 10 large for a musical instrument.....

i have sevral great connections in the classical world....and mabye someday i will get to use them cause my skill level commands it...but until then i'm going at it like an obsesive hobbie.....

go to google {type in david langsather} he's got a great site...with a detailed "online picture/explanation" book....i find him quite the wizard...

he has lots to say about graduation and has some great depth details on stards and guneri's graduation...

good luck with you goals....

Jeremiah · Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject:

What I'm doing is keeping living expenses way down. I'm a single guy with no attachments and can just make ends meet by doing repairs and making full time. My instruments are generally better sounding than what comes from China, so I don't really worry much about that kind of competition. Word of mouth is proving to be pretty good at selling instruments now that I have a few out there.

Jeremiah

jethro · Member Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 178

Jeremiah: What you are doing is just what I'd like to try, I just wanted\to estimate if it might be financialy survivable.
If you don't mind me asking , what would you estimate as your average
number of weeks for construction ????? And what price range are you
in now? I've only been making / learning for about 2 years so I'm not
fully in gear with it yet as far as speed and efficiency goes. If I could get
uninterupted time to make 2 or 3 in a row without stopping I'm sure I could gain a lot ! I think I could do 6 weeks and 2-3000 $ maybe. Am
I underpricing myself ?????????????????????????????????????????????

Sounds like you are breaking even for your time plus a little !
That is encouraging !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeremiah · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject:

I think it would be absolutely essential that you either have a part time regular job or associate yourself with an established shop which can provide you with repairs on a steady basis. Otherwise you won't be able to survive in the low periods.

I have the advantage of having trained with one of the best violin making teachers around, even if only for a year. It makes all the difference in my product.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah · Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject:

To answer more of your questions, I find it difficult to make a violin in less than four months, while also doing enough repairs to pay basic living expenses. My instruments are priced at 5k right now and I've had comments that they could be priced much higher than that. The lower pricing allows students to get into a real good instrument sooner and easier, and word eventually gets around and people start wanting my instruments.

I use traditional methods in making, with some German influence I'm told... my instruments have pretty much the normal "American professional maker" look to them. I try not to take shortcuts in my making.

If you are making instruments in the $2000-$3000 range you're competing with China. In most cases the Chinese instruments are going to win that competition because the Chinese have more experience than you do and they've also been quite well trained.

I suppose if one really wanted to compete with China they could move to China where the living expenses are lower... Smile

Jeremiah

MANFIO · Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject:

Yes, Chinese makers have an edge... that's why I've Chinalized my name and now I'm labeling my violins as LU MAN FIO.
_________________
www.manfio.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7875988@N02/with/464604020/

jessupe goldastini · Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject:

ha,classic.....and after all this time trying to come up with an "italinization" of my name....

peter gallant · Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:16 am Post subject:

Jethro,

You're asking the right questions. I've been making violins for appx 8 years. I have a full time job (electronics tech) but my hope is to be able to be in the violin business full time and I'm working towards that goal.

It takes me about 150 hours to make a violin. Most makers I've heard from with many years of experience can do it a lot faster, less than 100 hours. My violins are selling, even though I'm a "no name" maker. I started at $1000 and I'm going up to $3000 US - the "Chinese sound barrier."

I've been considering selling on consignment at a well respected local shop. The money won't be there but it will get my violins a lot more exposure.

I hope this helps.

Pete