Violin Forum/Message Board

[techfiddle]

A student on YahooAnswers posted the following question. I posted my answer below it; I'm curious to know what other orchestral musicians would have to say in response.

Q: How much training would it take to get into a professional orchestra? Like a good one, I mean? For a violinist? I've been playing piano since I was eight and started playing violin in 8th grade. Now I'm in 10th and I'm still in Orchestra, except that I'm as good as the kids that have been playing since elementary and all that jazz. How many years of additional training do I need? Should I hire a private teacher?

A: It's a good (great) question, though the number of years is really not the issue. And yes, you DEFINITELY need a good private teacher. You cannot progress to a professional level (in terms of orchestral playing) without one. You can't teach yourself technique and etudes and a ton of repertoire. You can't.

Your teacher will also help you professionally in terms of thinking about where to get an undergraduate degree in violin (a BM or perhaps BA). You need to start now thinking about where you want to go to school. You should find summer programs, supervised by the teachers (and students) you want to work with. You need to keep your grades up, get into a good practice routine, and listen to as much music as you can. Read books about musicians. Watch films about musicians.

[AntonPolezhayev]

If beginners are level 1 NYSSMA, intermediate are level 6 NYSSMA, getting into New York Philharmonic today would be level 6'000'000'000 NYSSMA. It's a completely different ball-game, totally different level. This is like asking: How long do I have to walk to walk around the Earth? The answer is N/A, because you need a car or better a plane with a pilot.

What I'm saying is: to win an audition into a top professional orchestra VS people like me (that's the kind of level people play at at those auditions and you'll have to compete against and play BETTER than, I myself have won and lost many such auditions) one needs a couple of decades of daily practice of 3-6 hours daily, with at least weekly 1-2 hour lessons with the highest level professional teacher(s) (NOT music educators but top level players of the world), and pre-college and festivals such as Juliard etc.

To get into a B-level orchestra like New Jersey Symphony etc. is only slightly less difficult. You'd compete against 1000 resumes, and about 100 carefully selected 1st elimination round players.

Keep in mind: a top orchestra like Boston Symphony pays about 100k a year for a part time job with benefits such as 10+ weeks paid vacations etc. You will basically play against the BEST people in the world in top form if you want to win a position

The easiest is to win audition for lesser orchestras that pay less salary, but you still have to play on pro level which has absolutely nothing to do in the slightest with high school or music educator's level of play.

I hope this wasn't too depressing, but it's the truth.

To hear how one must play buy a CD by Bill Preucil where he plays orchestral excerpts that you will be asked at auditions. The CD is part of "orchestra pro" series. It's available on Amazon.com for download. If you play worse than him in any way, you're not guaranteed a win


(I'm a former Associate Concertmaster of Orchestra Symphonica Estado Sao Paulo Brazil, former member of New York Philharmonic and New Jersey Symphony Orchestras)
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLDeYZXUDDQ

[techfiddle]

Hi Anton, I'm happy to see you here. And thank you for your very honest and helpful post; when I post similar things, people tell me I'm "snobby" and make remarks like, "who does she think she is." Nice to hear from someone who knows what's he's talking about and can prove what he's saying, based on experience.

May I quote you?

[AntonPolezhayev]

[techfiddle]

See:

http://beststudentviolins.com/AuditionsGigs.html#10

..includes link to the Bill Preucil CD, which I have, and which is very helpful, just as you suggest.

[techfiddle]

I would add (and I did, in the FAQ):

[AntonPolezhayev]

[techfiddle]

Yes, I too have noticed that students (my high school students, for example) do not hold themselves to a high enough standard. I had one student who prepared a taped audition for the Perlman summer camp. I had no idea his parents would set up the appointment with the cameraman, without the work being perfected. The student played it with a couple of clinkers, mailing it in to Mrs. Perlman like that. He didn't get in.

In fact, peer pressure works against a very high level of development sometimes. "Good enough" seems quite good compared to most of the students, and trying to rise above that puts the student in an awkward position with his or her peers.

[John Cadd]

Techfiddle
The peer pressure aspect must be a very worrying aspect of the learning process for teachers. How does one get a handle on such an elusive and negative force? Private teachers with scattered pupils would not be troubled so much by that. Is there a national cultural side to that? I think of Heifetz way of lavishing praise on his protegees --"-Hmmm--Not bad". Maybe he knew what he was doing .
The Russian way of grumbling with a long face at the performer in class has always amused me. This was in a film about the Moscow Conservatoire.
Another aspect of (American )national culture is seen in a "sport " like ice-skating.All the poise,grace and dignity is lost the second the performance is finished.Suddenly the behaviour changes and it`s fist in the air and noisy yelping. Will that national characteristic be an influence? Will I get some flack for this?

[techfiddle]

amezcua, I would happily give you flack if I could tell what you're talking about. I'm sorry; I haven't a clue.

[John Cadd]

Techfiddle , Was I rambling? Peer pressure.If a teacher praises a pupil (in front of other pupils) that can set up a bit of jealousy among the others. If (say ) Heifetz said anything more than ---"Not bad " there`s a chance the green -eyed monster will jump out. That nastiness in all of us will rise to the surface.Heifetz was no stranger to nastiness coming from an anti Jewish part of the world.
The " better than" syndrome comes up all the time on you tube comments and look where all that leads to.
Your phrase "hold themselves " sent me off on the wrong track.I pictured all the stage presence type of "business" that comes before and after playing. Heifetz taught all about that also.Maybe I should not have mentioned the fist in the air and yelping.But you must know what I mean. It`s a national characteristic. Ask Jeremy Clarkson.

[John Cadd]

Oh well,no degree in psychology this week.

[Amalia]

LOL!